Meeting Details

Meeting Summary
Licensing Committee
18 Jan 2023 - 18:00 to 20:00
Occurred
  • Documents
  • Attendance
  • Visitors
  • Declarations of Interests

Documents

Agenda

Part A
1 Welcome and Announcements
The Chairman will welcome members of the public and Councillors and remind everyone to use microphones at all times when they are speaking. The Chairman will also explain action in the event of an emergency, mobile phones switched to silent, audio-recording of the meeting. Councillors who are members of the committee will introduce themselves.
2 Substitutions
Councillors will be asked to say if they are attending on behalf of a Committee member who is absent.
3 Urgent Items
The Chairman will announce if there is any item not on the published agenda which will be considered because it is urgent and will explain the reason for the urgency.
4 Declarations of Interest

Councillors will be asked to say if there are any items on the agenda about which they have a disclosable pecuniary interest which would prevent them from participating in any discussion of the item or participating in any vote upon the item, or any other registerable interest or non-registerable interest.

 

5 Minutes of Previous Meeting
The Councillors will be invited to confirm that the minutes of the meeting held on 28 September 2022 are a correct record.
163

RESOLVED that: the minutes of the meeting held on 28 September 2022 be confirmed as a correct record. 

 

6 Have Your Say! (Hybrid Council meetings)

Members of the public may make representations to the meeting.  This can be made either in person at the meeting  or by joining the meeting remotely and addressing the Council via Zoom. Each representation may be no longer than three minutes.  Members of the public wishing to address the Council remotely may register their wish to address the meeting by e-mailing democratic.services@colchester.gov.uk by 12.00 noon on the working day before the meeting date.  In addition a written copy of the representation will need to be supplied for use in the event of unforeseen technical difficulties preventing participation at the meeting itself.

 

There is no requirement to pre register for those attending the meeting in person.

The Committee will consider a report setting out the responses to the consultation on the proposal to change the Council’s Hackney Carriage and Private Hire Licensing Policy to require all licensed vehicles to be fitted with the means to accept electronic payments in addition to cash. 
162

Peyman Oyar Hossein attened the meeting and addressed the Committee in accordance with Colchester City Council (the Council)’s Have Your Say! arrangements. Mr Hossein was the Chair of Colchester’s Hackney Carriage Association. He has used a card machine for over 12 years, but strongly felt that the Council should not be dictating that card machines in all licensed vehicles were mandatory. The reason for this was the poor internet signal in and around Colchester, and in areas of poor signal it was extremely difficult to receive payment for a fare. Asking passengers to pay for a journey up front did not look professional, and until the network could provide drivers with perfect reception, then the provision of card machines in licensed vehicle should not be compulsory. It was considered that other business which were licensed by the Council did not have to provide card payment machines, so why were licensed vehicles being made the exception? Although it was still possible to accept cash as payment, many people did not carry cash anymore and a request for payment up front could cause offence and arguments, and the taxi trade felt that it was vulnerable to disputes and passengers making off without payment.

 

Councillor Goss, Portfolio Holder for Neighbourhood Services and Waste, attended the meeting remotely and addressed the Committee in accordance with the Council’s Have Your Say! arrangements. Councillor Goss voiced his support for the proposal, noting that he had heard from residents who had been caught out late at night when taxis were unable to accept card payments, leading to longer journeys to get cash out from a cash point. It was therefore right that the Council mandated card machines in licensed vehicles, however the option to pay by cash should remain. The majority of businesses were able to accept payment by both card and cash, and he noted that the proposed Policy allowed for payments of any form to be accepted. He considered that it should be down to the individual proprietor to chose the type of card machine that they employed, although did accept that network connectivity problems were a legitimate concern. Although there was the possibility for fraudulent payments to be made, this was a risk accepted by any business, and the presence of closed circuit television in many taxis would go some way to protecting the drivers against this activity. On balance, he offered his support for the proposals, and considered that the vast majority of his constituents would also welcome the scheme.

 

David Daniel attended the meeting and addressed the Committee in accordance with the Council’s Have Your Say! arrangements. He had been a taxi driver for over 40 years and did not think that the provision of card reader machines should be compulsory. He noted that the majority of comments which had been received in response to the consultation were from mini-cab drivers who had the support of their employer and who had no idea of the aggression which hackney carriage drivers had to deal with. He did not have a card machine in his vehicle, and noted that there were very many hackney carriages equipped with card machines, who were able to take jobs paid by card which he could not. He was happy to wait longer for a job which would be paid by cash, and it was his right to run his business as he saw fit in this regard.

 

Stewart Beer attended the meeting and addressed the Committee in accordance with the Council’s Have Your Say! arrangements. He had been a hackney carriage driver for over 20 years, and had been taking card payments for the past 6 years. He did not understand how the method of payment used in licensed vehicles was a licensing concern. He advised the committee that in November 2022 an official government response to a survey had stated that businesses were entitled to accept payment by whichever method they wished. He was happy to accept card payments, but noted that there were licensed establishments in the town centre who accepted cash only, and questioned why licensed vehicles were treated differently. He was aware that it was possible to ask for payment for a journey up front, but did not like to do this as he felt that this questioned his customer’s integrity. He was very concerned about the proposed penalties for failure to provide a card machine listed under the Council’s Penalty Point Scheme, and considered these to be draconian. Although it had been suggested that larger private hire companies did take payment up front, Mr Beer reminded the Committee that drivers for these companies were in receipt of protection from their employers which sole proprietors were not.

 

Jon Ruder, Licensing and Food Safety Manager, attended the meeting to present the report and assist the Committee with its deliberations. The Committee heard that there had been 48 responses to the consultation, with 36 of these in favour of introducing the requirement for card payment machines to be made available in licensed vehicles, with 6 against and 6 uncertain. In response to the comments which the Committee had received, it was clarified that the proposed Policy would not require all payments to be made via card, and there would always be the option for cash payments to be received. Although a detailed list of complaints received in relation to the refusal to accept card payments was not available at the meeting, it was confirmed to the Committee that anecdotally, the number of complaints associated with failure to accept card payments from both the public and the licensed trade itself had increased since the end of lockdown as people now preferred to pay by card.

 

Although other types of businesses were licensed by the Council, these were not regulated in the same way that hackney carriages and private hire vehicles were, and the Policy which was applied to these vehicles was not implemented by Officers, but rather the Licensing Committee. It was possible to request a cash payment up front, however, if the meter in a hackney carriage showed a fare which was less than the amount which had been paid up front, the difference must be refunded to the customer. The costs associated with taking a journey in a private hire vehicle were managed via the private hire operator.

 

A Committee member noted the concerns which had been raised by drivers in relation to the proposal, however, considered that when a destination was requested by a passenger, the driver would know whether or not it was likely to be in a bad signal area, and then could ask for a card payment up front or cash on arrival. Provided there was clarity from the start in this manner, it was suggested that most problems could be avoided. In response to questioning, it was clarified to the Committee by Jon Ruder that to refuse to take a passenger from a taxi rank could constitute an offence, and there were only certain circumstances where such a refusal would be lawful, even if the journey requested was a short one. Issues could be caused by drivers not adhering to rank etiquette with regard to accepting fares, and any complaints which were generated as a result of this would be investigated on their own merits.

 

A Committee member voiced surprise that not all licensed vehicles were already equipped with card machines, considering that most people did not carry cash routinely these days, particularly the younger generation. They had considered the points which had been raised very carefully, but recognised that when policy was changed, it was not possible to please everybody. On balance, they considered that the benefits offered by the provision of card machines outweighed the stated disadvantages, and would further serve to increase the safety of drivers and passengers alike, noting the recent press reports of a spate of robberies of licensed vehicles. It was considered unlikely that the introduction of mandatory card machines in licensed vehicles would make drivers worse off, but it could very well make them better off and better able to offer a more attractive service to customers.

 

In further discussion, a member of the Committee was uneasy with the enforced introduction of card payment machines, noting that of the responses which had been received to the consultation, 33% were against the proposal or were undecided, which was a significant amount. They considered that the trade should have the choice on whether or not to use card machines, and further thought that the proposed level of penalty points for failure to make a card machine available was far too high. Jon Ruder advised the Committee that the amount of penalty points which would be applied for failure to comply with the policy could be revisited by Officers.

 

The Committee wondered whether it was appropriate to delay the introduction of the proposed policy until the network provision across the city had been improved to allow card payment to be taken in more areas, and some concern was raised that the proposed policy would potentially negatively impact on the income of taxi drivers. The Committee was advised that it was considered that it would be dangerous for licensed drivers to advertise that they only took cash on the their vehicles, as this could make them more likely to be targets for robbery.

 

Christine, the owner of Panther Cabs, attended the meeting, and with the permission of the Chair, addressed the Committee. She said that of the 196 which her company used, only 3 did not have a cad machine in their vehicle, which was their choice. Although she personally would choose to make card machines available, she did not consider that this should be made compulsory, and should be the driver’s choice.

 

David Daniel raised further concerns that he would receive points on his licence for advising customers that he preferred to be paid in cash, even if he did provide a card machine, and did not think that this was fair. Jon Ruder assured the Committee that penalty points under the Council’s policy were not issued without a full investigation, including making reference to CCTV and other sources of evidence where available, and interviewing the driver concerned. It was already an offence to refuse a fare for any reason, and all complaints would be investigated.

 

The Committee, and those in attendance, were advised that the Committee was being requested to refer the adoption of the new policy on to Full Council for a final decision, where the matter would again be the subject of debate prior to implementation, providing another opportunity for concerns to be raised.

 

RESOLVED that:

- it be recommend to full Council that the Council’s Hackney Carriage and Private Hire Licensing Policy be amended to require licensed vehicles to be fitted with the means to accept electronic payments in addition to cash. 

 

The Committee will consider a report setting out the Council’s proposed Policy on the use of the National Register of Taxi Licence Revocations and Refusals (NR3) which will form an appendix to the Council’s Hackney Carriage and Private Hire Licensing Policy, subject to a six week period of consultation. 
164

Jon Ruder, Licensing and Food Safety Manager attended the meeting to present the report and assist the Committee with its enquiries. The Committee heard that in line with guidance issued by the Department of Transport, it was proposed to adopt the use of the National Register of Taxi Licence Revocations and Refusals Database (NR3). Any licensed driver, or applicant, who had been refused a licence or had a licence suspended or revoked would have their details entered onto this database to allow every other local authority in the country to carry out checks against them as part of the process for applying for a hackney carriage or private hire drivers licence. Protocols were in place to regulate how information would lawfully be provided. The Committee heard that the proposal represented a statutory standard, and the Council would have to demonstrate very good reason for not including the use of the database in its Hackney Carriage and Private Hire Licensing Policy (Policy). Notwithstanding this, the proposals were required to be the subject of a 6 week consultation process, and the Committee was asked to approve the draft Policy, subject to the results of the consultation. As part of the application process for a driver licence, the NR3 database would be consulted prior to the issue of the licence.

 

The Committee considered that the proposed changes were long overdue, and were necessary to provide the required levels of safeguarding to the public.

 

RESOLVED that:

- the proposed National Register of Taxi Licence Revocations and Refusals Database (NR3) Policy be approved, subject to the results of a six week consultation. 

 

The Committee will consider a report setting out its work programme for the remainder of the current municipal year. 
165

Matthew Evans, Democratic Services Officer, introduced the work programme 2022- 2023.

 

The Committee was asked to consider difficulties which had arisen over the past year with finding members to be appointed to sit on Licensing Sub-Committee hearings. There had been a significant rise in the number of hearings which had been required over the past 12 months, and this had led to rising pressure on members of the Committee to be available to sit on Sub-Committees. It was recognised that the majority of Councillors had other commitments which meant that they could struggle to be available, leading to disproportionate pressure on a smaller number of Councillors. Virtually all members of the Committee were now trained and able to participate in Sub-Committee hearings which was very helpful as it was considered that the increase in the requirement for Sub-Committee hearings was likely to continue in the future.

 

The Committee considered solutions to this problem and wondered whether increasing the pool of available Members by increasing the number of members of the Licensing Committee would be helpful. It was also considered that it may be useful to pre-schedule Licensing Sub-Committee meetings at intervals throughout the year, and appoint members of the Licensing Committee to site on these, cancelling them if they were not required.

 

The Committee was content for Officers to consider these options and report back to it at its next meeting.

 

RESOLVED that: the contents of the work programme be noted.

 

Exclusion of the Public (not Scrutiny or Executive)
In accordance with Section 100A(4) of the Local Government Act 1972 to exclude the public, including the press, from the meeting so that any items containing exempt information (for example confidential personal, financial or legal advice), in Part B of this agenda can be decided. (Exempt information is defined in Section 100I and Schedule 12A of the Local Government Act 1972).

The Committee resolved that. In accordance with Section 100A(4) of the Local Government Act 1972 the public, including the press, be excluded from the meeting so that any items containing exempt information (for example confidential personal, financial or legal advice), in Part B of this agenda can be decided. (Exempt information is defined in Section 100I and Schedule 12A of the Local Government Act 1972). 

 

Part B
10 Minutes of Previous Meeting
The Councillors will be invited to confirm that the minutes of the driver appeal panel meetings held on 8 April 2022 and 16 December 2022 are a correct record.
166

RESOLVED that: the minutes of the driver appeal panels held on 8 April 2022 and 16 December 2022 be approved as a correct record. 

 

Minutes for the driver appeal panel 08-04-2022 draft
  • This report is not for publication by virtue of paragraph 1 of Part 1 of Schedule 12A to the Local Government Act 1972 (information relating to an individual).
Minutes for the driver appeal panel 16-12-2022 draft
  • This report is not for publication by virtue of paragraph 1 of Part 1 of Schedule 12A to the Local Government Act 1972 (information relating to an individual).

Attendance

Attended - Other Members
Apologies
NameReason for Sending ApologySubstituted By
Councillor Sam McLean  
Absent
NameReason for AbsenceSubstituted By
No absentee information has been recorded for the meeting.

Declarations of Interests

Member NameItem Ref.DetailsNature of DeclarationAction
No declarations of interest have been entered for this meeting.

Visitors

Visitor Information is not yet available for this meeting